Ep 62 How CRAFT and Coaching Transform Relationships With Guests Beth Syverson and Joey Nakao

Living With Your Child's Addiction Podcast
Living With Your Child's Addiction Podcast
Ep 62 How CRAFT and Coaching Transform Relationships With Guests Beth Syverson and Joey Nakao

Beth, Joey, and Heather talk about how CRAFT (Community Reinforcement and Family Training) and coaching transformed their family so you can hear real-life examples of how this work can change your family too. The highlights of this episode are hearing how Joey feels about the changes he made and how Beth’s mindset has shifted about Joey’s substance use and the peace of mind she creates for herself.  Joey doesn’t know how CRAFT or coaching works, but he knows how it feels to him. That’s a beautiful testament to how much impact and influence you can have as a parent.

Some of the main topics discussed:

  1. How taking the focus off your child and putting it on yourself impacts your family’s experience of your child’s addiction.
  2. It’s important to redefine parenting when your child is struggling with addiction – what worked before will no longer work.
  3. Connection is the goal instead of sobriety. 

Episodes to listen to next:

Listen to the Safe Home Podcast

Safe Home Website


Resources From Heather Ross Coaching

NEW GUIDE ABOUT ENABLING – If you’ve ever worried about enabling, this guide is for you! https://heatherrosscoaching.com/perspective-about-enabling/

GROUP COACHING PROGRAM – Join the waitlist – New Group Starting soon! Be the first to get details. https://heatherrosscoaching.com/peace-of-mind-community/

If you want coaching about your child’s addiction or anything else Sign up for a 45 minute $17 call with me using the link below



There’s a new parent support group in Town. Use the link below to find out about the Invitation to Change support group Heather is hosting.

Learn More & Sign Up For The Invitation To Change Group


Follow me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/heatherrosscoaching

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Join the free Facebook group for parents who are struggling with a child’s addiction

Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/heather-ross9/message


This transcript has not been formatted or edited.


I’m Heather after many wasted years, trying outdated, approaches to my daughter’s addiction, that felt wrong to me harmed.

Our relationship and didn’t help my daughter.

I finally found an effective evidence-based approach.


That repair my relationship with her helped me.

Create my own peace of mind and made me an ally in my daughter’s recovery.

I teach you a loving and compassionate approach to help you encourage change.

Create connection addiction impacts the entire family system.


Family recovery is the answer.

Hi everybody.

I have a little announcement to start with today.

You might have already noticed that I updated the name of the podcast.


In the cover art, the name is now living with your child’s addiction.

And that was always the intended name, but then I got worried at the last minute that it was too long.

So I dropped the your child part, but then the name was a little bit confusing because Not clear who’s addiction that you’re living with.


So now the name is clear and parents know that this podcast is for them when they see it.

And I also don’t think that I’ve ever shared the story about why I chose the name, living with your child’s addiction but I do have a good reason for it.

One thing is that addiction affects the entire family system so everyone is living with it.


Not just your child that struggling.

We all have to learn Learn to live with it and work with it, instead of resisting.

It it has to become a part of our life that we work with so we can have as much peace of mind and joy as possible in each of our individual situations.


In an earlier, podcast episode, I talked about meditating and picturing sitting with your child’s addiction giving it a face.

Imagining, what it’s story was, I went into how the whole process of how you could do that and going through that and sitting with it leads to being able to live with it.


I mean, it doesn’t mean that you’re suddenly besties or anything like that but you have an understanding and you find Rhythm to living with it.

Like you do with all of the other pieces of your life integrating it.

And when you can live with their addiction instead of constantly resisting it, your child will see that they will hear it in your voice and they will feel the difference in your energy around them.


So, the next thing that I want you to know is that to be watching your email if your On my email list and social media.

If you follow me for some announcements, I’m going to be starting an invitation to change group soon.


I just finished the certification with the CMC foundation for change.

It was amazing.

And they’re the authors of the book beyond addiction.

And I think that this invitation to change group is going to be a great experience, I’m really excited to share it with you because it’s not just a support group, which is Horton in needed.


But in this group you will learn tools like craft motivational interviewing and acceptance and commitment therapy.

They’re all evidence-based approaches that work.

So be looking for that announcement so you can sign up for that.


When it gets started, I’m also going to announce some dates that I’ll be doing some free group coaching and that will start with learning a tool from Craft and then you can get Coaching on whatever you want, any topic you bring to the call or more help putting that tool to action in your life.


So make sure that you’re either following me on social media if you’re not already or on my email list or both so you don’t miss any of the announcements and there’s always links in my show notes for you to sign up for my email list and also how you can follow me on like Instagram or Facebook, and there’s also always a link to sign up for a 45-minute call with me in the show notes, as well, in the calls, only $17, so that you can see what it’s like to work with me and how I can help you, because I know a lot of people haven’t tried coaching before, and so I wanted to be easy for you to try and last thing if the show is helping you You please share it with somebody who needs it in a group wherever just share it, so that it can get in the hands of any parent that needs it.


And also, if you can leave a review on iTunes, I would greatly appreciate that.

So, that’s the end of my announcements.

Let’s talk about today’s episode last week.

I talked to Beth Syverson and her son, Joey.


And you might remember them from episode number, Or tea, or you might have taken the freak.

Laughs craft workshops that Beth and I did, and you might have met her there but Beth cybersyn is a mom of an 18 year old son Joey who has been struggling with addiction and mental health issues for several years.


She struggles with addiction is well, but it’s not with the same substances as her son.

But this experience has given her empathy for her.

Son struggles.

And she’s learned to maintain firm boundaries while also nurturing a positive relationship with Joey.


She’s walking beside Joey as he struggles with his recovery.

While she works on her own personal growth, and healing, Joey and Beth started safe home podcast in August 20, 21 in order to help other families, avoid the pain that they have endured and they are committed to be stigmatizing addiction and mental.



And they want to help as many families as possible through sharing their story.

They’re also a really great example of what I was talking about earlier, living with your child’s addiction Beth and her wife, Jan stopped resisting, Joey’s addiction, and everybody’s experience changed, including Joey’s, and he talks about his experience with that today.


He doesn’t even know what tools his parents learned from coaching.

Who or what, what craft really even is, he just knows what it feels like.

He knows that his mother’s changed and he could really feel the difference.


So that’s it for the intro.

I really hope you enjoy this episode.

Thank you for being on the pad joy, to share your story from said, thank you.


Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I think your perspective is important for other parents.

To hear another kids do?



Well, let’s start off with just a quick overview of where we’ve been with Joey Joey started with at age 15 with a suicide attempt that woke me up.

Big time and we found out right after that that he had been using substances for a couple of years.



About a year after that I went around trying to fix Joey.

And how did that feel to you Joy?

It felt like a lot of weight on my shoulders.

I just had the suicide attempt and then I’m like trying to get better.

How am I going to get better with all this pressure it was a lot of for my head so yeah yeah yeah.


So for about a year I ran joy around to every psychiatrist psychologist.

New Age Guru anyone I could find that could help quote-unquote fix him but then In desperation.

A friend told me about getting a life coach and we found Heather.


Thank goodness, because she understands what it’s like to have a child with addiction and Heather taught us the model and the craft method and it completely transformed our family now.

How’s it been since then took a long time, a lot of work to get to where I am right now.


But before you guys started doing the work and before Was started to do the work.

It was just a lot of chaos, just bunch of chaos like that time.

I don’t remember.

I think because it’s almost like trauma to me and the work.


Like I didn’t get help until it took a long time to land with Miguel, right?


Around the same time, we met Heather.

We also met Miguel so that all kind of coincided Miguel’s help you so much, huh?


And then that work that we’ve done at first, it was so chaotic, a lot of care.


Joss but less chaos and then built up relapse has and stuff.

But then, we handle them better than last time.

And it’s now become a place where I can use and work at a job and have a girlfriend that starting to do the work getting therapy and doctor appointments.


It’s is amazing.

It’s like I did not think I could be here.

My brain is nowhere where it used to be.

I feel like I have really destroyed my brain with The driver side for use.

Your cognitive ability is pretty impaired, huh?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean you’re still in there.

I can tell you’re in there but your brain is slower than normal and it’s hard for you to remember stuff.



And especially with my surprise is that I quit on first.

So I think a lot of the sweat and stuff if you if this is on camera is probably from the withdraws and it sucks and it was just one of those times but it feels like this.



It feels like I’m going to do it for good.

Maybe I might have that occasional bowl or something like that, but it’s not like I’m going to be using it like I used to just couple weeks ago.

Like, daily.

It’s getting to a point where I just think of work every morning.


I’m like I want to go to work.

I never thought I could get to this point of changing.

I am able to see a future, I guess.

Yeah, you’ve had a really good couple weeks.

You’ve been And for this new job for three weeks.

The longest, I broke the record.



I know, three weeks.


And so, that’s really helped stabilize you.

And now you’re three days without.

What was your drug of choice?

Latest drug of choice is cannabis.

It slows the brain down.

But like, to me, I think it more of a psychedelic and then announced that you were using it.



But to normal people is just like, slowly Bend.

That’s probably what I was getting is that so But now I’m detoxing from that.

Three days is what you chemically your detoxed, but you’re going to be very like Angry agitated.


This is the day where people relapse for cannabis and then this is the day I have to push through.

This is the next Milestone that I have to break.



Well, and we’re recording on this auspicious day.

That feels pretty good.

Yeah, and we explain who Miguel is and the kind of work he does.


Because I like that.

That’s a little bit.

It’s not there too.

Additional path.

And I love sharing that there’s all kinds of avenues to getting help and that’s what’s helped you the most oh, yeah.

Oh, Miguel is I consider my spiritual guide.


He really is just a very forward-thinking therapist or person who understands trauma and how trauma is, what chaos kind of spreads from.

And then later in life, in the person’s life, he understands that.

So, he works with people and shows them a deeper.


Balloons and how to deal with those instead of dealing with the problem, dealing with the trauma, not the problem.

It’s going right to the root.

Yeah, yeah, we had tried so many psychiatrists and therapists and rehabs and treatments and none of them would go anywhere near so is Early Childhood trauma which was primarily from being adopted.


And also I divorced his dad when Joe is for which kind of exacerbated everything with that one therapist, there was obviously trauma right in front, right.

In front that family issues out there but then he focused on weed.




And then it brought the whole family down.


So we were so happy when we found Miguel and Joey connected with him so deeply and he does something called the practice is called guided Court integration.

You know, he doesn’t have a license, he’s not a therapist, you didn’t go to school for this, he got Guided by his own guide, right?


Yeah though.

Nothing against people who are licensed at all.

I mean that that’s really valid and in everything but sometimes you find people that are off the beaten path like Heather was saying yeah absolutely I’ve done a lot of alternative work for myself working with energy healers and Alana you know I had her working with them to so and that’s was kind of a also a bridge to connection with us as well.


If you don’t mind me asking what type of energy work?

We did Reiki energy, healing, that kind and we worked with a couple of different energy.

Because each one is very different.

We are going to sound baths together, which is really deep meditation.

I was thinking about some best, I’ve always been interested.


What is that?

And how where do you go in your mind?

Well, I think that every person has a very different experience.

Yeah, but it helps you get into a really deep meditative State.

I’ve had a lot of experiences with it.

That were pretty intense that I would say, are similar almost to what some but I’ve heard other people.


Ernst with psychedelics.

So you can go to a very deep meditative State and you really experience things that you wouldn’t be able to experience trying to meditate on your own.

Yeah, so I’ve gotten a lot of answers through.



Energy healing.

The helps you deep deep in your meditative state is.

That’s the goal.



Like as you can get into a deeper meditation.

Stay there.

A longer with the sound bath, then most people could their own without, you know, you can just go to a sound bath and get into it, a deeper State than somebody who say practices every day for a long time.



And vibration that like, with sound and me personally with music but sound is especially so powerful.

Especially with those frequencies.

Those frequencies are moving your body, vibrating your body.

I don’t understand that.

I want to understand that sign.


Yeah, it’s really cool.

That’s for later.

I’ve been listening to binaural beats.

Yeah, that’s those are, I love those things.

It makes me feel so relaxed.

I don’t know what they’re doing in my brain, but it feels good.

And isn’t that frequencies to some all that sir?

Wow, yeah, I listen to those two.


Well, let’s talk about the things that I learned from Heather, that helped make our transition.

And I really credit this stuff that we learned from Heather, with, basically saving our family.

I don’t know where we’d be, I don’t know where Joe is.

I’m not sure if he’d still be alive because he was going down a really bad path when she really, really risky behavior.


And we were just getting farther and farther apart and what I had been doing that first year before, when we met Heather was I had Joy under the microscope and I was trying to fix him, I was just focused only on him, I don’t even know how I got through my jobs that year I kept my jobs but I don’t know what I did but I would just do the bare minimum and every other Moment of the day, I was trying to find the healing people or some healing modality or trying to get him to do one thing or another.


And one of the first things Heather told us was we need to focus on ourselves and take our Focus off of Joey.

And at first, I was like, what?

Joe, he’s the one that needs the help.


Now I know that family issue, right?

Yeah, I was gonna say that the kind of tiger mom gave me that pressure, not, you’re not the reason I was using drugs.


It was giving me another pressure to want to numb out.

Yeah, I remember one time in the car, he’s like Mom this is making me want to use more and I was mad like I can’t make you want to use but I took it in after a little while it’s like he’s telling me I’m doing is making him want to use more.


I better quit doing this and so yeah, it’s like it was calling out for help like fleas.

I didn’t know what I needed.


But like you are not doing something right?

Yeah, whatever it is.

It’s not this, right?


This is not going to help.



And once I think you got that message or and angel came to you and give you this gift of friggin the craft and Heather.

And it’s like it’s so amazing that that’s possible to have that change and I’m experiencing right now and it happened quick.


To me it was a quick shit know it, it was quick.

That’s what I was thinking is that thank God that you got the resources so quick because it could have been so much later and I could have been in my 30s or something still in the same place or Worse?




I don’t know that have been all sorts of different things, right?

Yeah, I’m so grateful that we found Heather and crafts when we did.

You were 16.

I think at the time it was about a year after the whole thing started.

Maybe 17.


Yeah, but it paid off and that’s that it’s a great feeling to know that.


Just changing someone’s point of view can really help someone especially if what they were doing and their point of view was hurting them and the person they’re trying to care for.


It was hurting both of us, for sure.

Yeah, it was.

So when we switch to just taking care of ourselves first, so we were getting our needs met.


I was getting more rest.

I was finding things for myself to be happy about, that’s when I started drumming, which is so good for me.

And we would go to town Bob’s and things like that.

And there’s a big shift, big shift in energy.

Like I know other you really dig deep into energy work and I don’t understand energy, but I felt it I’m really visual.


So the energy for me was a very dark, dark tint to it before, my experiences under drugs were very dark.

But when I got out of it, the feeling I had no longer under the influence of harder drugs that will make me see the colors.

But I felt this sense of lightness and the vibration was thinner as thick.



And when I close my eyes, the colors were a lot more bright and it feels so good to have this free or tension this fee up, attention.


So, would you say?

Because you are saying, it took two years to get to here, did it?


Start with a change in your relationship with in your family?

I think it started with the want to understand more About what is causing the issue and that is, that’s communication.


So once you got hooked in with Miguel and Jen and I were working with Heather, everything just started to change, but I think it is good for people to realize it’s been two years and it’s not been just like all of a sudden, happiness, and rainbows and unicorns, it’s been still struggling, but all of us were healthier in the struggle.


Yes, it made the struggle, their Wellness.

Yeah, because I think when you get this much substances on board it’s going to be a struggle period, right?

And especially the time I was still using, you know, do you mind sharing Beth what it looked like when you say you had the microscope on him like what you were doing?


Oh well, I just thought Joey was the problem and I super mom needed to fix it.

I felt heroic.

I’m like, don’t worry.

Joey almost got it.

I got you, you know, kind of like that.

It out that door.

I will come save you.


And I didn’t realize that it was a whole family system problem, first of all, and then it wasn’t really even a problem to fix it with relationships to rebuild, addiction isn’t really even the problem.

The problem is more, the Deep trauma and the connection that we were missing.


So I was just going off to the wrong thing and it’s what our culture tells us to do really.

I mean I was just doing what parents do.

We try to fix our kids and try to make them do what we want to do.

But now Now I know what I know.

I would have done things much differently all along.

Yeah, for me with Helena, I was doing the same thing.


I was looking at her as the problem, I needed to fix her.

She needed to change, she’s causing problems in our family, she’s causing chaos in our life.

It was so much blame instead of looking at why?


Why is she doing this?

Why is she hurting so bad instead?

I was saying.

Why is she hurting us?

Oh yeah.


Why is he doing this to us?

Yeah, I felt the same way.



Instead of her pain.

And I think that a lot of times we miss that, that, how much pain the person struggling with addiction is in and that whatever substance they’re using, is actually helping them medicate that pain.



And it’s actually a solution, it makes sense.


If you look at it from that perspective but I had to land on under the microscope like she was like my project.

Your the problem I’m going to fix you and then we can all be happy again.

Instead of, oh my gosh, our whole family system is a problem.


Everybody needs to work on themselves.

We’re all contributing to this.

And we’re blaming it on you, and that’s got to stop today.

That was like your months of me coming to that realization.

Yeah, well, it must really suck for the person that’s been diagnosed as the problem because not only do they have whatever issue, brought them to the substances in the first place that core issue.


But now they have everybody blaming them for everything and that must feel terrible.

My point of view, it’s like yes I know I am doing something wrong but you telling me to stop doing what I am doing wrong.

It’s not helping me stop doing it wrong.


Yeah, sure sure.

It make you feel defensive and yeah.

And it’s like, you know, Don’t know me.

You really do not know what my life is.

Like I I don’t even know what my life is.

That’s what I’m struggling with.

And at that time you were hiding a lot of things.

Yes, you knew that we wouldn’t be able to tolerate it, probably, but a lot of what you were doing with undercover, right?



Everything was undercover.

It was, it was so stressful.

I bet because I had to Vape in the like, bathroom at home, I had to like, flush it.

So you didn’t hear the whistle of The Vape.

He had a flush while you’re vaping.


Yes, it was little things that people do to hide things.

Yeah, we’re building up all the time.

You had to be thinking.

Okay, how can I do this?

How can I get this?

How can I my mind was full and then finally, when I had freedom of choice, not fully, but like of understanding that they’re not going to be like, really mean to me or hurt me or anything that I can freely think that what I want to do, obviously some things are not right, but I can get those worked on and have a free your mind without having to think about how to lie this game.



When we all just sort of face the truth of what is right now.


Joe he’s hooked on a bunch of different substances right now and we had a firm boundary that you’re not allowed to use it at our house but I guess lucky for you.


I don’t know if this is lucky but your dad, let’s use.

Whatever at his house.

So you are able to be at your dad’s house using substances.

Like you were.


But the hiding went away.


When Jan and I figured out what we were doing a little bit better.



And I can tell you that.

I’m smoking still.

I will stop smoking for our outings, huh?

Like I will communicate whenever relapse things like that, so it’s not hidden.

It’s like, it feels like we’re actually like a healthy family.

It’s not like I’m struggling.


They know I’m working it.


Yeah, they’re not trying to fix it themselves.


Oh and I remember Heather told me if possible don’t even talk about drugs, which was really hard.

Because that’s all I would talk about, what are you using?

Where are you getting it?

What, uh, how much what but, why aren’t you going to be that bad all the time?


And so like, what am I going to talk about if you take away drug?

So I don’t know what we talked about for a while.

They’re probably a lot of bar animals or something, but I just tried to steer, clear?

I’m like Joey’s probably using drugs whatever I say.

Won’t make any difference in that, but I want to have a relationship with him.


So let’s find other things to talk about.

Yeah, I want to have a relationship with him.

That’s such an important realization and it’s like, do you want to have a relationship with him?

Or do you want to be right?

And sometimes we have to give up what we thought parenting should be redefined that whole relationship.


Because everything that I believed about parenting, and what it should look like.

What my relationship might with my daughter should look like, or a lot of it that I was bringing to the table.

As far as dealing with any kind of problem in our relationship was really pushing us apart.



And it was not changing any of her behaviors, right?

And a lot of it felt wrong, like oh my gosh, I shouldn’t be talking to her, this openly Out this a my condoning it because I’m talking to her about it.

It felt awkward to the first time we talked about drugs openly it was like healthy, it’s healthy.


But it at first it’s strange it’s so strange and it feels weird because it’s like I was hiding this so so much and it’s now it’s like open that I’m doing substances.

But now you want me to get better and you’ll help me get better.


Yeah, it’s not.

I’m going to make Make you better is so much better than we probably started with things.

Like what, what are you getting out of?

Whichever substance.

Yeah, that thing that’s sort of when I would be and addiction.

That’s one of the first things is they’re getting something out of it.


What are they getting out of it?

What did I say?

Do you remember it?

Numbs you out?


I think I said, I didn’t.

Yeah, takes away your pain.

I think for the second dellux, it really gives me fake answers.

Now that I realize I’ve realized it now that they’re faking answers that you were seeking Answers and seeking news of I wasn’t learning anything in school.


And when I took his substance and it gives me knowledge of it, convinces me, it’s giving you knowledge.

I get addicted to that.


And that’s what brought me down.

It’s not like a joke about how everyone seems like a genius when they’re high.

Like, I don’t know.


Like, yeah.

And then when you come back down, you’re like, oh, that.

Wasn’t that smart?

Oh, I thought I was in my head when I was tripping I was like, I need Inside out, not literally but I was like talking to my friends about really deep like rocket science almost and then lie things to like make the world a better place.


Almost and then I come out of it and they’re saying you were speaking in tongues, bro, it’s just gibberish.

It was gibberish, but in your mind you were like Einstein.

Yeah, these things were out of my comprehension to talk to you with now.


Like it was like it was giving me stuff but stuff, that wouldn’t help right now.

You know.


It’s like an illusion.


Exactly a false reality.

I can remember whole and I trying to talk to me about tell me what it was like when she used LSD and I would just get so disgusted and I wouldn’t even entertain the conversation.


This was early on, before I started making changes in myself and coming to, you know, more of a place of acceptance.

So, Then when I did start trying to talk to her, she felt the same way like you were describing Joey where she felt like very apprehensive and even all the way to the end, like she would tell me, she would tell me details about so many things, but when it came to drugs it she wouldn’t get into a lot of details and I think that there was still even though we’ve been working on it for a couple of years trying to open things up.


There is still just that.

Element of shame that kept her from really opening up about that to me, fully at this point in my life with why I am?

I’ve lost, I don’t know if it’s because I fried my brain or if it’s actually like a good moral.


I have that.

I don’t care.

I’m a free person.

People should know.

My story should understand the struggles.

The real struggles of what like, substance abuse.

Is and sounds like and how to make it less of a struggle.


Yeah, I think your voice is really important to hear.

I think not many people that are in the middle of substances can talk about it, very coherently, but I think I think you have a really unique gift that you can talk about what it’s like right in the middle of it.


Where I am at this point is like I want to get better.

I want to help others.

But II need some support and I don’t know, it’s kind of starting to drain me out a little bit, but I know that’s one low.


That’s what I’ve learned.

Is that it comes up.

What comes up?

The peak of getting better, you always is a way it is a wave.

I was thinking of one of one of the other things that Heather has taught us, is that sobriety for you is not our goal.


Our goal is connection.

Yeah, and I think it’s interesting that you’re on day three of sobriety, and he told me that right before we got on.

So, I did know just a tiny bit earlier than everybody in this listening to this, you know, but I am really proud of myself for not jumping through the roof with joy.


I’m, I’m very proud of you and I’m like, yes, good, but I feel like our energy between us hasn’t changed.

Yeah, which I think is a lot of growth.

Yeah, it’s like, oh, I’m not treating you any different because you’re sober.


It’s because I’m listening to you and I’m proud of you is not that you’re sober.

Is that you trying?


And I’m not I’m not doing that.

Okay, okay, let’s get you into a meetings, let’s get you to the digit.

Ooh, yeah, now the user where you know I’m I’m letting you do it, how you want to do it because you’ll do it your way anyway and our main goal is connection with you.


Not that you’re sober.

Hmm, your sobriety is your Your business, your decision, your choice.

I don’t I always have trouble with those choice and decision, words, Heather.

What am I supposed to say?

Ha, ha ha.

But he’s, yeah, I mean, I don’t like to narrow it down to minimize the complexity of it by calling it a choice but yeah, whatever is right for you.


There’s no one-size-fits-all it’s not black or white.

You know it’s whatever is best for you because addiction And each person is so different that it’s really important that we don’t try to fit people into that one size, fits all have that black and white thinking, that there’s only one way to get sober and you have to do it that way.


And if you’re not doing it that way, then you know, I’m freaking out and that’s freaking out and you’re feeling all this pressure again and then we’re right back where we started, huh?

And when I was thinking that sobriety was the goal even when you had Had weeks of sobriety.


I was still a nervous wreck because I like I’m just hanging on by my fingernails.

Oh my god.

When is it going to end?

Oh my God.

He’s gonna be like fire, and it didn’t bring me peace, even when you were sober.

So I feeling so much different.

I was at peace yesterday, and I’m at peace today, and just not chaotic and right, it’s just more steady and more, even on all on all parts.


And your piece doesn’t come from, whether Joey is Uber or actively use.

That’s right.

My piece is completely separate from Joey and that’s so hard, I don’t know.

I’ve heard of people say, You’re only as happy as your saddest child that tells that you cannot be doing better than, yeah.


Any of your kids.

Like you have to take their temperature to see how you feel.


And that’s really codependency right there, right?


I’m not saying I’m perfect at this, by any means, because yeah, when Joyce having a real rough time, it’s hard on us.

For sure, but I am able to separate.


Oh, that’s Joey having a hard time.

I’m okay over here, I’m still.


And Joe is same thing, you know, maybe Joey at different times, thought he had to be pulled together for us and not just for his own self, right?


And that’s the time where I like would be high around.

You guys would be like, I shouldn’t be highest like a dinner or something like that.

I need to compose myself, but then I, then I get high.

And say, okay, because you were trying so hard to please us, right?

It’s obviously exactly.



So like I’m trying so hard to be sober that one dinner but then it pushes me to do it because then I was on the dinner and it’s like I have to smoke because of the stress of trying to be good for you guys.


So we took away that pressure or most of it anyway you probably.


Yeah I mean you probably would guess that we’ve probably wish you weren’t using substances.


Yeah. 100%.

But but the pressure to do it for us is gone.

Yeah, you wish that’s the US.

You have your own beliefs and your own wants and that’s what you understood is that it’s no longer.


I can make it my way, I can make it my way.

Yeah, when I started prioritizing connection over anything with Helena, I really had just come to this place of acceptance that maybe she would never get sober.


Like maybe this was all All that was ever going to be available to me and I wanted to have a relationship with her no matter what.

And then out of that grew, the unconditional love deeper levels of acceptance of who she was.



Then now who I wanted her to be in the future who I wish she was from the past but really just accepting who she was right then and not needing her to be.

Anything else for me to fully love her and in order to for me to have my own peace of mind and I mean of course when things get really, really bad, we go through phases, where we have to do a lot more mind management for ourselves and work on ourselves harder.


But at the same time that knowledge, even that it’s my responsibility to work on how I feel every day versus Before when I, it wasn’t really intentional, I wasn’t thinking like you need to be doing better so that I can be happy again, but that’s how I was acting.


That’s what was underneath everything that I was doing.

So once I just even knew that, okay, I am 100% responsible for my happiness and my life and putting that on somebody who’s already struggling.

Yeah, is so unfair.


That’s asking a lot, huh?



Well, you are such a good example of that and you taught me that so so well and I totally got it like oh, that’s the formula.

Thank you.

Got it.

And it is some parents, just don’t get it.

It’s a typical thing because it just turns everything on its head and I think that’s why it may be some parents.


I don’t know.

I can’t imagine being confronted with this information and rejecting it but if they did it was probably because it’s so unusual or is so Oh yeah, that’s true.

You have to work on yourself Odo.

You’re so smart ding.

Ding ding, ding, Joey.


Because I mean, even parents will say to me, like, I don’t want to think about this right now, because things are kind of okay, right?

And so soon as a little bit of the pressure comes off.

And I get that like it’s human nature.

We want to avoid feeling crappy all the time, but they don’t want to work on it because it’s going to bring up that pain and they don’t want to feel It and I mean, I have to say Beth like the reason you got such great results is because you were like doing multiple models every day.


Yeah, it would send them to me and then you would keep working on them.

I mean, you dug in and you did the work.

You worked hard on yourself.

This wasn’t.

I don’t want to like, it wasn’t like, you just met me and started talking to me.

It’s magic.

It was me chemist.

Actually, you did the work that you mean, you read the material, you did models in between you He looked at yourself and went into things that were uncomfortable, so that you could show up how you want it to and feel good about yourself and it is uncomfortable to face the fact that, ah, shoot, it’s not just my son, that’s a mess.


It’s me too.

And you know what I’ve learned so much because Joey has a lot of attachment issues from his adoption and then my divorce but so do I it’s not the same but I’ve realized that I have a lot of attachments.

Shoes too.


And I’m starting to go down that that road of looking at my Early Childhood trauma and it’s been really a gift if I look at it like that.

I can’t believe I’m saying this after all that we’ve been through, but it’s been a gift for me.

Because if this had not happened, I would have just still been living on the surface of my life and I’m feeling so much healing personally from a lot of different things.


So Joy, you took us down this path and I’m really grateful that you Thank you know it like thank you for being supportive throughout the chaos.

Yeah, sometimes my support it was well-meaning but sometimes my support didn’t really support you very well.


Yeah, we’re still here.


And so glad we were able to talk about it and sometimes even laugh about things and just everything’s out in the open.

You know, the very first day you were in the psych Hospital are maybe the next day.

We were all just like, okay, we don’t have any s left to give, let’s just quit the faking it and let’s just dig in and let’s just be honest with ya.


I think that’s a really good.

I wish we would have done that a couple of years before.


But it doesn’t happen until something happens to us.


It was easy before to just be sliding through, you know, like okay, things are pretty good.


Yeah, there was building.


Yeah, you think you’re kind of skating through you.

I would have said that I had a good life that I was successful and you know, I look back on that and I’m like my life was a mess.


You know, I had there is this something missing inside of me.

This like I felt unsatisfied.

I wasn’t able to love fully and openly and vulnerably and deeply the way I am now, and I knew that was missing in me, but I just kind of accepted it.


It even though I didn’t really like it, I didn’t wasn’t willing to really dig into fixing it.

I just kind of glaze over it.

I was totally asleep at the wheel of my life, like yeah, numbed out is numb as I could possibly be and still, you know, manage to really mimic the emotions, that I knew that other people felt But I couldn’t see that until I felt this intense pain and loss and grief of not having the relationship with Helena.


Like, I think that she described it as like we were just so beat down both of us by the time like that I was willing to do anything.

I just didn’t care like anything.

Just help me please.

And that’s when I just started trying things, I would have never tried before and never been willing to do before I would have never been willing to do the work.


Like we talked about how hard you worked at it.

I worked really hard at it and it but I would have never worked out hard at it before because I wouldn’t have given it the credit, right?

I wouldn’t have thought that I needed it because I thought I was fine.


Cuz when you’re able to keep, you know, your job going, your kids doing school, okay?


You know, you just think okay doing the dream, you know, living the American dream but yeah, just so at the surface and so numbed out I think Heather and you and I both were Workaholics and for our and I can totally understand Joy’s need to numb out because I do the same thing except my is not going to kill me with the computers, maybe slowly right below it kills me kills my spirit great.


So a stress than ever shows but it does the same effect.

It numbs me out doesn’t make me think I have to think about the pain, I totally get that.

I was going to ask Joe is there.

Something that I make it myself pretty vulnerable here because I don’t know what you’re going to say, is there something that you wish that we could work on to continue to make our relationship better?


Is there something that you wish Janet I would do differently right now?

Or is there a way we can support you that you’re off the Cannabis know?

I don’t really think anything.

If anything comes up.

Obviously, I’ll tell you, I’ll be open.

But no, not at the moment, just the phone calls and knowing that you’re gonna be there for me.


That’s all I Yeah.


We see each other a couple times a week and we’re always here for you.


Can I just point out how simple his answer was?

I asked to Lana the same thing when I interviewed her.

And her answer was really simple to it was, she was she said she appreciated by patients because her emotions went up and down a lot and my love, which is similar to what you just said is so simple.



It supports somebody like that is the most basic thing that we all want need just to be seen and understood and accepted.

Yeah, and there’s so much misinformation out there that that’s enabling don’t allow these things.

Don’t talk to them, if they’re high, don’t let them, you know, don’t all of these things and I just I feel like the word enabling is so condemning and it’s a roadblock for parents who are trying to help their kids.


Of course, we want to help Kids and support them.

I mean, there’s, there’s a way to learn how to do it which, you know, is part of what craft teaches is the healthy way to support your kids.

The way that works.

Yeah, but I think that just letting everybody know like it is.


Okay to love your kids when they’re using, doesn’t matter like love them.

The same show them.

Like, like Joey just said, like, that’s what he needs.

That’s what Helena said she needed.

It in any kid who could be really vulnerable and honest, like they were, would tell you the same thing I think.


Do you have anything to say about that enabling piece?

Like, when we started talking to really frankly about substances or made things more open to that make you feel like using more drugs or no?

Actually I was it’s always been me, wanting to use drugs.

Never been you guys wanted to use drugs, but it made me feel like it’s not a bad thing and I have to use more Justin them that same feeling.


Yeah, so and there’s a lot of Shame and blame or get you into this rehab that rehab that made.

You feel shame and blame which made you want to use more, but when we took it away, it didn’t make you quit immediately but it didn’t make it worse and make you want to add drugs.


What about like when I gave you the box of Narcan, did that feel like I was saying, okay, here you go.

Use opioids now or no.

No I understand how important Narcan It is, I’ve researched it.

I’ve lost friends because there wasn’t knocking, so like I didn’t take that as an insult or anything, but as enabling or like, no, no, no.


I thought that I was protected protected.

Yeah, that’s why I didn’t know it overprotective, but it’s the right protective I used to give helana Narcan to, and I can remember when she was staying in a hotel room.

And, you know, of course, obviously, there was other paraphernalia on the bed, but there was Narcan there too, but Also using alone and I went to this overdose awareness event on Wednesday night last week and shared Hawaiian.


And I shared our story in the stigma and everything we’ve experienced.

I got Narcan while I was at the event and it’s sitting on my nightstand and I was just thinking like that could have saved her life and imagine if it was common for any time.

Somebody used a loan, sometimes I see numbers where you can call if you’re going to use a loan where if you You stopped responding they’ll call 911.


And I was like, what if it was that comment?

Just so common that she had said, I’m just going to call this number when I use tonight, because I’m going to be alone in this hotel room.

It’s just such a simple mindset shift.


Such a simple change.

She didn’t have to die.

And I think that we need a lot of mindset shifts around, how we approach Addiction in this old.

Mindset of rock, bottom and enabling and, and all of the things that we shouldn’t do, that really have, there’s no science behind any of it.


Have you heard of those numbers, Joey, if you’re by yourself and want to use, but want to stay safer, I’ll try to find the number and put it in the show notes.


Do you think that would be something you would do?

Because a lot of your problems with psychedelics particularly you use by yourself but if there was someone on the other end of a phone, it depends on where I’m at in my drug case and you’d have to really trust them and stuff but The exactly like if it’s just like the XM or something like that, I would definitely want them because I can OD, but if it was like on a psychedelic, I wouldn’t because it would make me spiral into a bad trip not knowing them.


So, it depends what you were using.



You can get a chip sitter for if you’re using LSD or something.

Yeah, don’t usually try to get a trips it or not.

He’s, yeah.

He’s yeah, so you’re not alone.

The being alone is yeah.

If Falana would have, let somebody know she was there or yes.


Just prepared somehow.

Yeah, that should be common exactly.

But because of stigma and fear, and, you know, I know she was feeling so much shame because she had relapsed and gotten car.

She know, then she immediately got kicked out of sober living and there’s nothing in our system set up for a person in such a vulnerable position.


That is when somebody the most vulnerable there should be another place for them to go.

Like if she wanted to didn’t want To go back into rehab because she didn’t want to lose her job and start over, but she could have had some where she could have gone for a week or two.


And then move back into sober living where she still had structure and support and didn’t have to feel ashamed.

You know, I think that that’s a big part of why people don’t reach out or talk to anybody even though, you know, she knows I love her unconditionally, all of those things, she still, she knows still Hard.


And so I think that the more we normalize having somebody to talk to having a number to call more, you know, everybody has Narcan like I was thinking the other day, like those remember when everybody got those AED devices and every business, oh yeah, I was like an arc and should be in every business the same way.



Like, absolutely, why isn’t it?

Because with all of the Ohio’s deaths every year, which just makes sense to me, but we’ve got to change the way.

Way people think before those things start happening, huh?

Well, both of us, our podcasts are all about reducing shame and stigma.


That’s a huge piece of what we’re trying to do.


Cuz that shame is just, it keeps people isolated and just add so much to the already.

There pain, you know?


Is there anything else you would like to say, Joey before we close up?


Yes, time.

It just takes time.

Change takes time and you’ve got Keep pushing to get to the place where you want to be, but you’re never going to be able to place you want to be.

So we got to keep pushing to be better.

Let’s keep improving your life, right and it’s a long haul to Marathon.


It’s not like a quick fix kind of thing.

It’s not a Sprint.

It’s a marathon.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you’re doing a great job doing your on the journey and you are learning so much every day and I’m really proud of you for sharing your story.

And for going along with the family Journey, with all of our changes and all of VAR, all of our ups and downs.


We’ve we’ve hung together.

Yeah, and I’m proud of you use very sticking around for all my BS and stuff.

I’m here for you.

Thank you for being brave and sharing today.

I know that’s not always easy.

And, you know, Beth for you sharing the changes that you made to, because the example that you guys set a family working together, I think it’s really beautiful.


Yeah, we’re definitely not perfect at it.

No try.

Which I bet.

I think we all know that we’re all trying.


We’re all on the same page at least.

And we’re all trying to just accept each other where we’re at.

It feels good.


Thank you for listening to this episode.


If you want to learn more about my work, go to Heather.

Ross coaching.com if you want to help other parents who are struggling with a child’s addiction, you can do it two different ways.

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