EP75 Challenging Beliefs About What “It Works” Means With Guest Cordelia Kraus from Helping Families Help

Living While Loving Your Child Through Addiction
Living While Loving Your Child Through Addiction
EP75 Challenging Beliefs About What "It Works" Means With Guest Cordelia Kraus from Helping Families Help
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Heather and guest Cordelia Kraus talk about addiction, recovery, and parenting while challenging traditional beliefs and exploring alternative perspectives and approaches to what “it works” means. Their hope is to provide insights, information, and support while encouraging thoughtful reflection and understanding in navigating the complexities of addiction and recovery within a family context.

The statement “it works” generally implies that a particular approach or strategy is effective in achieving its intended outcome. Many parents’ only intended
outcome is for their child to achieve and maintain abstinence or sobriety. This may not be applicable or effective for everyone though. Recovery from substance use disorder is a complex and individualized process, and different approaches may be more appropriate for different people based on their unique
circumstances, motivations, and preferences.

It’s crucial for parents to be open to understanding and respecting their children’s perspectives and desires, and to consider a range of approaches that may be appropriate for their child’s unique needs, rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all approach based on preconceived notions of what “it works” means. An effective response to substance use involves flexibility, adaptability, and a willingness to collaborate with your child to find approaches that truly work for their
well-being and growth.
Cordelia Kraus, LPC, CADC- became passionate about working with families struggling with their loved one’s substance use after going through her own experiences as a mom. Cordelia runs the website HelpingFamiliesHelp.com: a website that connects families with CRAFT-based resources and offers community and support for the providers who serve them. She has a private practice in Portland, Oregon.

 

Topics discussed in this episode:

  • What “it works” means  
  • How to show up with love in times of fear   
  • What the CRAFT 70% number really means  
  • A more inclusive definition of recovery    
  • The pitfall of wanting to go back to your pre-substance use life

Check out the website Helping Families Help

Resources From Heather Ross Coaching

NEW GUIDE ABOUT ENABLING – If you’ve ever worried about enabling, this guide is for you! https://heatherrosscoaching.com/perspective-about-enabling/

If you want coaching about your child’s addiction or anything else Sign up for a 45 minute $17 call with me using the link below https://heatherrosscoachingcalendar.as.me/RoadtoRecovery

There’s a new parent support group in Town. Use the link below to find out about the Invitation to Change support group Heather is hosting.

⁠⁠Learn More & Sign Up For The Invitation To Change Group⁠⁠

Follow me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/heatherrosscoaching

Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/heatherrosscoaching/

⁠⁠Join the free Facebook group for parents who are struggling with a child’s addiction⁠

Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/heather-ross9/message

Transcript

This transcript has not been formatted or edited.

0:01

I’m Heather after many wasted years, trying outdated, approaches to my daughter’s addiction, that felt wrong to me harmed.

Our relationship and didn’t help my daughter.

I finally found an effective evidence-based approach.

0:16

That repair my relationship with her helped me.

Create my own peace of mind and made me an ally in my daughter’s recovery.

I teach you a loving and compassionate approach to help you encourage change.

And create connection addiction impacts the entire family system.

0:35

Family recovery is the answer.

Today’s episode features a guest but it’s a conversation rather than an interview because of that, the pace is different than a normal guest episode.

0:52

It’s a real-time conversation and there’s some pauses and slower responses.

This episode took on a life of its own and changed into what it wanted to be, and came out so much better because of that.

1:09

So during the time that Delia and I were planning.

This episode a client brought up something really important and that had a big impact on the direction of our conversation that client shared with me how it felt to her to hear.

1:29

People say it works when they’re talking about invitation to change or ITC, for short and craft because their kids are in recovery. so when people say it works because they’re in their kids are in recovery, What does it mean?

1:49

If you’re practicing craft an invitation to change and your child still struggles with substances, does that mean that it’s not working for you.

The longer I do this work, the more I understand the importance of the language I use and the impact it has and I course correct.

2:10

When new information changes my perspective which happens constantly every time I’m lucky enough to get Zoom room with other people and helping professions who are using craft and invitation to change.

I’m really inspired by their work and what I learned from them.

2:29

And the reason that I get the opportunity to be a part of that Community is because today’s guest or Delia Kraus spends a lot of her own personal time creating a community for us to come together where we learn from and support each other.

2:47

Each other, it’s been helpful to me being an entrepreneur because it’s lonely.

It’s similar to the loneliness, parents feel about being the only support that their kids have.

And the answer to that is being a part of the community who understands you.

3:10

But I didn’t have that for a long time, when I met Cordelia in a training that she was facilitating, Year, I got access to the community that I really didn’t know that.

I need a hood, but it’s where I found my people people with similar beliefs, who want to help families and being around them, really it energizes and inspires me and makes it easier for me to serve more families.

3:42

So today’s guest for Delia Kraus LPC cadc, Came passionate about working with families, struggling with their loved ones substance use.

After going through her own experience, as a mom Cordelia has been a part of what is now.

4:00

CMC foundation for change, invitation to change training team since 2016.

She completed the craft clinician certification process through dr.

Robert Myers and Associates in 2018 and his The facilitator for both smart recovery and smart recovery, family and friends.

4:24

In 2019, she took over what is now helping families help.com a website that connects families with craft based resources and offers community and support for the providers, through serve them, she has a private practice in Portland, Oregon.

4:44

So some action steps that you can take after listening to this.

Episode is to check out helping families help.com and become a part of the change families can if they are willing, not only do the work for themselves within their own families but become a part of the change by letting others who are struggling know, there are evidence supported options available for them to learn skills and perspectives that can make a difference in their home.

5:15

If they find this work helpful for themselves, So they can raise awareness just through the conversations they have with other families.

Friends pediatricians, doctors, clinicians recovery centers are stylist, clergy whoever’s interested and spread the awareness that families need empowerment and support to and there is an existing path that can help.

5:41

I hope you enjoy today’s episode.

All right.

Well, thank you for coming on the podcast today, Cordelia.

I appreciate you making time for us.

I’m so excited to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Heather.

So let’s start with you sharing about the helping families help website.

5:59

Like, what it’s all about, what people can learn from it.

True, absolutely.

So, helping families help.com, is a website that tries to connect families with craft based resources.

So in, In one of my by absolute Lovecraft and craft based work.

6:17

And one of my frustrations as a clinician was that I couldn’t find places to really Point families towards.

So they could actually see this in a little bit of a bigger picture and choose for themselves about what might be best fit.

And so, a few years back, I was sort of handed this website out of whatever, I wasn’t quite expecting it and I’m really incredibly grateful for the opportunity to have taken it and run with it because that’s what came out of.

6:42

It is a place to be able to point families.

Ways that they can find Community reinforcement family, training, based work through books, and websites, and podcasts, and trainings, and events groups.

And it’s almost like this Pub that you can go to that points towards other people that are offering the work.

7:00

Yeah, I love that.

And then there’s a little bit about each person.

That’s offering the work on there to help make the choice easier and all the invitation to change meetings are on there.

Yes.

So there is a part of it is a provider directory for folks that are interested in being listed that are open to having Folks.

7:19

At home.

A guide, we will bring to having families, reach out to them and connect with them and work with them.

There’s many, many different groups, invitation to changes a lot of them.

Many of them are offered for free, which is phenomenal.

There’s actually a vents that are listed on a separate page, events are more one time offering, so either classes that are happening like right now there is a limited times that’s With Beyond addiction that it is an example.

7:47

There’s a few different studies that they’re recruiting participants for that’s on the events page and then the ongoing groups are groups of units drop into that are just, you know, ongoing but we’d have to week month after month will find them there?

Yeah, it’s a great resource.

And I love when because if somebody asked me like, do you know, somebody that works with Partners instead of parents?

8:08

Then it’s so nice to just be able to send them to that website and have them look around instead of me trying.

Trying to go out and find somebody that I know where would craft and ITC.

That also works with Partners.

Yes, yes.

And it’s on the resources side on the books of websites student, actually lower you know like check on parents and have it show up or check on the partners or only books.

8:32

I’m only interested in books and have it sort of in that way and I’m looking forward to as the site progresses it.

This is actually sort of a site that I run on the side if you will just as As a hobby.

So I’m hoping I can start carving out more time to be able to support things that have things a little easier to find and yet for right now, I think it works well enough to be able to help Point families in a direction that what that would be helpful to them.

8:59

And if you can’t find what you’re looking for, just shoot us an email, Sherry and I work really hard to match family members with resources that would make the best sense for them in their situation.

So if it just feels like too much, No worries at all to send us an email and we’ll let us know what’s happening for you with your partner or parent or sibling or and where you’re located and we can find some resources.

9:24

That might be a really good fit.

Yeah, that’s great.

I love what that website offers and the I wish I had been around like 10 years ago or is searchable.

That’s the hard thing somebody brought up in one of the invitation to change groups was that if you don’t know the right terms to search when you’re looking for, You, you just happen to, luckily, run into something about Beyond addiction or invitation to change or craft, but it doesn’t really come up if you’re just searching, how do I help my kid that struggling with substance use, right?

10:00

Because there’s so much history of the more confrontational word, Detachment based approaches that are out there that we will find in there and their database for sure.

There’s also another quick side to helping families, help I’d love to point towards in case it’s helpful as Well that there’s the other piece of it is also support for providers who are interested in learning more about the work.

10:21

So it offers community and support either or both for providers that are doing the work but also anybody who’s interested in even learning more.

So for families out there who are listening if you’re working with a therapist if you’re working with a pediatrician dr.

Whoever you are working with.

10:37

If they want to learn more about craft or hear more about it from the provider side, this is also a great place to send them.

We have this phenomenal community that is set up to be able to learn more and support more and lists of trainings and events and consultation groups in such that’s great because I have had Parents ask before.

10:57

Like, well, what if my doctor or counselor or psychiatrist doesn’t know about craft doesn’t?

Maybe doesn’t agree with the way I’m approaching things then they could send them to the website.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

And again, have them reach out to me and I would love to talk with them or Or phone conversation Zoom called like a big get as much of this information out to the providers that are working with families as well, to help them understand the base behind the science base, that’s behind us.

11:27

And and what this, what this work does and what it looks like.

Yeah.

Okay.

That’s great.

So before this Cordelia and I talked a little bit about I had we’re going to do like a traditional interview and I had all the questions written out but then then we got into a conversation about what it means when we hear it works as far as talking about crafts or invitation to change and it’s really easy to say it works without explaining that further or people having different definitions of what it works means.

12:07

So we thought we would go a little bit into talking about what’s behind It’s not like the craft research that shows that when you using craft 70% of loved ones, seek treatment and what that really means.

12:24

And then I’ve had people ask me.

Well, what about if you’re in the 30%?

What does that mean about your family?

And so, we thought we would just talk about these really important parts of.

Let’s start with what it works means to you, and then I’ll add to it as we go.

12:44

Or consume and that question is such a important question.

I think to look at I’m so excited that you’re having this conversation because that’s one of those comments that there’s an assumption around it that gets sort of really really slippery.

12:59

That’s not very helpful.

So to me when we’re looking at, even what that means have to look at what it is that we’re talking about and really slow down, so we can talk and it sounds like we will talk about the craft based research and what it works mean.

In that context, for invitation to change, is going to be a little bit different.

13:18

I think there’s a bit of a different intention that’s there.

So, for me, and I’d actually really super curious to have this conversation with the folks that created it.

So doctors, Jeff, Foote Carrie Wilkins, and Carpenter to go to see on TV.

And but as I’m doing this work, what I’m looking for is the potential for increased connection between the loved one who’s struggling with substance use and the Family members so increased.

13:46

You better communication increase connection looking for.

Ideally you might see some recovery type behaviors out of the loved one.

That may not mean they stopped using, but that might mean harm reduction, that might mean they’re reaching out with friends a little bit more.

14:01

That might mean that doing a little bit more self-care around seeking out services or wound care or, or just connecting with people services.

Need something.

I’m also looking for Witnesses and whatever so we can impact this term a bit more if it’s helpful, but looking for more psychological flexibility, within the parents or within the families as well, so that they can navigate this is really, really difficult situation in a way that is based on their values that they can continue to practice these these skills and processes in a way that they feel good about and that might be regardless of what happens.

14:44

For the loved ones response.

So for me, those are the big three things that were were looking for and actually what I’m talking about recovery on the second one I’m looking for that.

Not only from the loved one, but from the family member as well, are they getting a more connected with friends?

Are they taking care of themselves?

A little bit more, are they seeking seeking services for themselves?

15:03

So yeah, before you said that about connection, I had just written it down when I was thinking, like, for me, what it works means his always been that.

Focus on connection and the healing that can happen really at any stage.

15:21

Like that was I think one of the most surprising things to me was that my daughter?

And I started healing before she got into recovery.

Yes.

And I think that there’s a lot of Despair about thinking that there’s no way healing can happen until somebody does get into recovery, and if it seems like they’re not headed that way that you’ll never have.

15:44

Connection.

Absolutely.

And that is such a huge thing.

And I’m actually really curious.

And it’s, and I apologize.

If you’ve gone into this other places with your podcast, please let me know.

But I’m really curious about what you saw.

They say, there’s an example that you have about about what the healing might have looks like for you now, there’s so much if it doesn’t feel.

16:05

No, I think for the most part, the healing was us seeing each other.

Other giving each other Grace, mmm.

We were, you know, we were both judging each other so much and really focused on our differences and coming from a lot of fear and anger for both of us.

16:32

And then moving into the vulnerability of showing up from a place of love and rather Van responding to fear all the time and there was a lot of healing and me, also stopping trying to control it.

16:55

The situation, like letting her.

I say, letting her move out, she was almost 89 it up.

Letting her move out like a month before with.

Just because I knew that keeping her like forcing her to stay at home was destroying our relationship.

17:13

Yes, I knew that.

That would like build a lot of Goodwill between us.

So it was just like, in really acceptance of her like, as she was.

Yes, yes, not wanting her to be the old, huh?

Lana?

17:29

Not wanting her to be, who I Envision, she would be in the future, but sitting there head and showered really hurting all the things, like just loving and accepting that person.

Yes, that was really the biggest healing for for both of us and her feeling that level of acceptance for me and me not needing anything from her anymore and horse that came from me.

17:57

Also healing myself focusing on working through my emotions and how that was feeling like recognizing that it was my responsibility, even though I was having feelings about her life and what she was doing and they were still my responsibility to process first.

18:13

Yes.

Something that went as you’re talking about that, that is so powerful to me that reflects of my personal experiences as a mom and doing this work.

But also in what I actually see and how I see this play out is that to almost to me was almost as ownership.

18:32

There’s a point that where I recognized I could not control what was happening and yet I still needed to show up and do what I could do in practice, what I could practice to feel that I was doing what I could and so this poem has a ailment.

18:47

It feels to me almost like bringing in a resources to be able to really just focus on myself on my in my practice and yet.

So all of that work, it takes to soften my face and find some warmth in seeing my loved one.

19:03

Even though it was a really really difficult time.

You know, finding those ways to be able to appreciate them among them, just for who they were initially.

Having that just be The and yet there’s also something in there that starts to purple the very often it doesn’t always, and that’s the tricky thing and even if it didn’t change the Dynamics in my home, it would have changed the damn it, Dynamics within me, and that absolutely matters.

19:31

Yeah, I very often see that there are changes then that happened between, but even there, I want to be careful because we can’t control that either.

All I can do is simply practice what I can.

Yeah.

And that’s the other part of it work.

Works for me too.

Is me being proud of how I show up.

19:49

Yes, and feeling good about myself every day.

Instead of feeling like a failure, not a good enough.

Mom.

Really wanting to show up with love and support but not knowing how first.

20:04

I mean this really is something that’s always stuck with me is the she got arrested, she was like 15 or 16 and it was like really early.

And realizing something’s going on here and I can’t figure out what it is yet.

She got arrested for stealing diet pills and the police called me and I was with a friend and he said, but she really needs right now is your love.

20:27

She doesn’t need discipline right now and I wanted to do that so bad, but I was so scared that I ended up angry.

Like I didn’t know how to work to handle my fear about it, and I show up with love at the same time and so once I finally did get that and I could be afraid and not know what to do.

20:54

I could override that and show up with love and support anyway, but those the, to my perspective, those are skills like that is practice.

That is, it’s not something that’s just comes.

That’s hard work.

Like what you’re talking about is is hard dedicated work on the, on the part of the family member?

21:14

To be able to practice showing up in that way and it might start with.

I’m going to practice this while I’m driving with a person that’s driving 10 miles below, the speed limit in front of me and trying to appreciate and I don’t know them as I mean that might be the places that we start with.

Can I find compassion for the person that’s next to me that can’t pick out broccoli in those supermarket and they keep on handling all the fall of, you know, like whatever.

21:37

And I can I try to understand how that might make sense for them that they might have something that they’re worried about whatever this Looks like birds a tiny dining different spaces and then we can.

But that is those are all skills and it’s hard work.

And I think it’s incredibly meaningful or absolutely worthwhile, but yeah.

21:55

Yeah.

Those are great examples of the person driving.

So I were the person because there’s always that person in the supermarket that you can’t get around.

It’s written for me.

What you need, but it is hard work and that I was really dedicated to it because I don’t want to feel how I felt anymore.

22:11

So I could either go through the discomfort Of learning these new skills and changing and it’s like lifting weights at the gym.

I don’t know why like, it’s okay to hire a personal trainer or to know that you shouldn’t be able to just run a marathon.

But for some reason when it comes to emotional or mental health we don’t realize how hard we have to work at it so I can see that you pointed that out.

22:34

Yes, absolutely.

And that is a dangerous.

Like, just like either of those, it’s this ongoing practice.

Like, one doesn’t matter, run a marathon even after two months of figures of Longer-term build up to this.

I was just going to say, it was funny to me because I had a friend who ran marathons and I was surprised to find out that, like, once you ran, when you couldn’t just go run one again, like you had to train again if you didn’t keep it up.

22:59

And so, that was great to point out that it’s the same.

That it’s just like, losing that physical strength if you don’t keep working at it.

Yes.

So to summarize like, it works think we both agree.

That it works, doesn’t always mean somebody getting into recovery.

23:20

It means liking how you show up showing up with your values and focusing on connection.

So, tracking that sense about that, I am for paying for it, for me as a parent that I have showed up in a way that I feel proud about.

23:38

So my loved one for a little while it was a Michael, Jordan wasn’t coming downstairs.

He often so I need it.

My job that every time that they came downstairs, look up from whatever I was doing and you know, not that llama on them but try it you know, she can I relax my face, can I show some warmth?

23:56

Can I say it’s good to see you and maybe offer a snack just but super low-key.

That was my job right?

And it was really hard.

It would it sounds a little bit funny to me.

It’s but it was actually really hard work on some days and then they would eventually go back upstairs and Me, I felt proud of myself that I showed up and I paid attention to and like that’s the closest part of it works.

24:23

I think that matters.

Yeah.

You know that this is hard situation happened and I practice a skill in there and I tried the skill and I feel good about myself for having tried the skill.

That’s like the first part of of this.

And there’s a second part of it, which very often will on the coming downstairs.

24:41

And, you know, we’re trying to ask open-ended Two questions.

I may ask 20, open and questions in a space of a week and maybe one or two of them get answered.

But even in that time, that one or two percent, there’s a little more connection.

No, so creates these possibilities for the loved one to be able to respond differently.

And I think there’s a little bit of it, works in there as well.

24:59

But again, they’re, we’re starting to sort of go outside the reach of what we can actually choose.

So I want to be really really light and really respectful about that.

There’s no guarantees of.

The only thing I can actually decide on is what I practice, what I can do.

Yeah, I like that.

25:15

I’m sorry that focusing on trying, rather than perfecting right, it works means.

I tried the skill, not that it than that, it’s going to be a process of figuring it out over time.

And I laughed when you said that, it’s super low-key, how you would respond when your loved one came downstairs because it’s so easy to get like, needy creepy and weird.

25:38

And just really, you know, like just downstairs, what can I do?

You know, like, all right, Graham or it’s about time you came downstairs or it’s good to see you this month or whatever.

Like it’s all these different things that would show up on my head or are now that I’m seeing you.

I have to tell you about the four things, you know.

25:55

Yeah.

That edge and great and for some reason they keep on going back up to the room.

Like I can’t figure it out or can I just like soften and create space and create warmth?

And it is super harder.

Yeah yeah.

All of this is it is and just even having the kindness and compassion for Self that.

26:15

You just tried the skill and it maybe it didn’t work out, like, you expected.

But that doesn’t mean that you did it wrong.

Yeah.

It’s just part of the process.

There’s a memory that’s showing up for me about my own work in this, if it’s okay to share, if it’s helpful that there’s a few different points.

26:33

For me, that really helps switch my stance and one of them was in a more of a therapeutic setting, or I was talking about my struggles and talking about You’d like with the story for but, but how it was for me to feel like I was trying to pin my eldest to the to the ground in a way?

26:50

Most of the time, it was figuratively.

Sometimes you know that actually happened and yeah, the struggle with kind of control and the therapist that I was working with asked me to sort of get physically in a position of what that would look like.

So I did and then asked me about what what would my eldest appreciate if they could?

27:11

We got there through this?

Okay, what is it that they would appreciate?

I would have done, and I came to this place of that, I was a safe place to come back to, and then they asked me what that position would look like.

And I sat on the floor with my hands, sort of Palms up on my knees, just waiting and then she did the most powerful and probably one of those brutal things ever.

27:31

And she had me sit, there you sit, just stay in that position for a while, and I’m sitting there, you know, just coming up now and like I’m sitting there like sobbing like a so feels so much easier to feel like I’m being I actively like sitting in that position of safety and that I’m an unsafe place to come back to.

27:49

And I there’s there’s time and I didn’t that I want to do anything, but it was so hard and yet.

So helpful for me to recognize number one that I could told that position and that was an important position for me to Old whether or not they actually came back and that it was really, really hard.

28:08

Like, both of those pieces, we can touch tones for me later.

So that’s my Heard of the way, it works.

Like that’s what that means to me.

I love that.

Yeah, I could feel that that waiting and how vulnerable and hard that is and not knowing how they’re going to respond.

28:27

But again going back to how good it feels to know that you’re holding that space for them is, it’s an active.

It’s not like a, this is really active stance of watching and noticing and waiting and appreciating and practicing my own care and see.

28:43

If I could notice little bits of what they’re aiming, there’s the in the whole, the whole stance is his ongoing practice, every just works connection, but with an open hand.

So without without grasping and I was just thinking of a Funny Story.

28:59

One time with for it worked for me that was like something completely unusual which was leaving my daughter in a parking lot.

One day she was I don’t know where we why we were there but we were at a gas station and And she was just really confrontational that day and I could tell the state she was in that I couldn’t stop it and I wouldn’t, it was going to turn into something and I ended up leaving her in the parking lot at the gas station.

29:30

I knew that there were friends nearby that she could walk to and I that was that wasn’t working that day.

That was the very best thing that I could do for both of us.

Because all I could picture was like we’re going to end up on the news because she’s Going to tried to, she’s going to get physical and I’m just going to lay on her and my good somebody’s going to be videotaping it in the parking lot, right?

29:50

So I’m like, the best thing I can do is just leave her in this parking lot right now.

That’s it.

It working in that situation, it doesn’t always look great.

Yes, but you ended up with a better situation, it sounds like it was a hard decision to make.

30:09

Yeah, and I played it all the way through that, I guess.

That was a big part of it.

Too.

Was seeing like what?

It not being in the fear of, I can’t leave my daughter in this parking lot but playing it all the way through what’s going to happen if I don’t it also sounds like The Stance I think matters here too because the other part that could be seen as well.

30:28

I’m going to show her.

She can’t talk to me this way.

I’m just going to Leah and then that’s not what we’re talking about either, right?

This is and I love you, but it’s not safe for us to be in the same car anymore.

Yeah, and it’s great to point out.

Some of the easily could have been that That or the feeling that I should do that by or that reason, when really, it was because it was really the kindest most loving thing for both of us in that moment.

30:55

Absolutely.

So, it’s not about a struggle for control anymore.

I’ll show her.

I’ll make her and I get any of those things and then so much.

Appreciate you pointing out that for you.

In that moment where you freaking out, this is the most kindest and loving thing I can do right now and she is safe and she has places to go exist before.

31:13

Happening.

This is what I can do.

Yeah.

It’ll be.

Before we move on to talking about craft a little bit more in the numbers that go with.

The research.

Is there anything else that you want to share about?

31:30

It works one of the things I track and I’m really curious about like as the study is around this, I’m hoping it’ll be almost like getting randomized, controlled studies around invitation to change gear as it’s being more.

Developed part of this question and around the studies is even what we’re what we’re talking.

31:47

Right.

One of the things that I track personally were there they would choose a check it out study or not is almost this ripple effect of what happens.

Like one of the things I really notice is when families including myself offer skills, open-ended questions you know curiosity respect reflective statements, understanding statements that eventually.

32:09

We actually start hearing those same skills coming back from the load one, right?

Doesn’t mean they went to treatment doesn’t mean that they’re not still using, doesn’t mean that there’s not some other difficult things that are going on, but some of that environment that stance, that it’s being offered by the family member, one of the other sort of, again, I want to hold this light leaks and can’t control this one.

32:32

But what I watch for is, does it start replying back to the very often?

It does small little ways.

You know, I love your mom.

Sometimes at that Phrase when it hasn’t heard in months and months.

That’s amazing.

And that’s, that’s part of what I’m listening for race away.

32:50

Does it work not only within the family member, but is it working to make other possibilities for connection and Care happened between?

Yeah, I was, as you were sharing that I was thinking about how that started reflecting back with my daughter.

33:07

Like the first thing was, she let me hug her, shouldn’t let me hug her, and so long.

And so and that was a huge and then she started calling me and then it was even managing my mind around the phone calls because of they went to like, what does she want?

33:23

Why is she calling me?

And then I was like, oh well that start calling it The investigator.

I was like the investigators going to get in the middle of our relationship.

It doesn’t matter what she wants.

She’s actually calling me and listening when she called and not being so needy creepy and weird that I just took over the conversation.

33:43

And so So, like, those were the really early stages of her reflecting know that back to me, that what I was doing was being well, received.

Yes and so well received that she’s starting to emulate, like super.

33:59

She’s actively doing those doing them back.

And, again, they can be tiny and I love that you picked up on that because that’s also the pieces here, that when were talking about some of the reinforcement skills, being able to notice that appreciating those small moments, In ways that would be meaningful to them.

34:16

So that’s if we can just start tracking that and you can noticing that then it actually becomes like exponentially even more likely to happen without being as you say, needy creepy and weird apparently.

I like that term because you couldn’t did you can’t say it without laughing and it just brings a little you know comic relief to such an intense situation sometimes.

34:39

God speaks to me for sure.

This pedal.

Yeah didn’t quite use those words in my head but I will now because of his.

Yeah, it’s it’s it’s hard to manage and that’s really what we’re sort of asking for.

And then which actually points towards that third piece of this that for me when I talked a little bit before about the psychological flexibility and to me and this is what comes from the acceptance, commitment therapy side of stuff with an invitation to change.

35:04

But also for the internal and work that I do is that, that, whatever, however, I’m showing up in this, resonates with me in ways that I can continue to practice in the Presence of really hard thoughts and emotions and urges to be me being weird because that’s all.

35:21

And so, I love that you were talking about.

They don’t recognize the investigators going to be there, she’ll be present, but she doesn’t run the show.

Now, you’re able to operate from this other place in children a different way.

And that’s that flexibility that internal flexibility to turn towards what’s important.

35:37

And to me when were talking about this like that, that is one of the most important.

I don’t know why they’re all important, but the one of the most important pieces of of it works, is that that’s the one that’s really, really housed in if the worst were to happen.

35:55

Yeah.

And I loved one dies.

Like how how will I look back on how I showed up?

And that’s a gift that’s that’s the part.

And again almost like it works becomes almost to of a black-and-white.

Yes or no phrase in their sort of dissolves to me but In that sense of connection like watching people that have followed this path and then it have had the worst happen and still have what feels at least from me and watching you and others who have done this, is that your feet.

36:29

Like your feet are on the ground and you know where your heart is?

Yeah.

And that’s you can’t replace.

I mean there’s so many things about it that are so hard, but there’s this gratitude.

Tude that I lived my life.

36:46

Really that I was willing to do the work that even though it was hard, there were times like when I didn’t like, what I saw in myself and it would have been easier to go back to just living kind of a numb existence that I went through that River of misery of seeing things that I didn’t like in myself and making those changes in the gift that it gave me in return.

37:13

Saying, every minute of the short, 21 years that I had with my daughter and knowing that she felt so loved and supported by me and accepted, no matter what.

37:29

And I believe that it is helped my grief that I can always go back to that because, you know, my brain Wants to Be a Jerk all the time.

And look at all the reasons, all the things that I did wrong.

But I I can always bring myself back to that.

37:47

I did the very best I could, and I did the work and that I know beyond a doubt that she felt loved and supported by me and that are very last conversation, could have been so different than it was because I got really angry.

After she called me and told me that she had had a Labs, but I knew that it was mine to manage.

38:08

So I never lashed out at her.

So things could have been so different and yes.

Really this also it works for us as parents to yes.

And to me that’s actually the most powerful of all the it all yet works.

Because that’s we so much that’s not within our control.

38:28

Like, that’s the part.

I know we sort of talked about this as a beginning, but Pamela Lillian hard from five family, that’s why it thrives recovery Family Resources.

I believe talks about this sense about doing this with work and not having that sense of what if she knows.

38:48

As you said that the, her child felt respected and connected involved.

If there’s no doubt about that, that that she did that, which would she could and for me, as a parent, there’s always, there’s always thought I loved ones alive now, but one of actually the other point to work for me is the thought.

39:06

This one might not make it.

And what do I do with that or family members I’m working with and that is a real This is a real possibility for anybody at anytime for anybody at any time.

Yes.

And so that to me is almost the deepest level and that the part when I need to that that’s the part I’ll back up into that’s most powerful for me instead of words.

39:32

And again, there’s almost like this I don’t have a words around this part of it but there’s a sense of groundedness there and sense of being able to hold what matters your feet on the ground.

You don’t really hurt his.

And that’s the greatest part of it worse.

From my perspective, I agree.

39:49

And I hear more parents saying thinking about that, not from a place of fear, right?

Because initially, that’s the fear that, if granted, sometimes happens in their child dies, but it’s more about, I want to, like, how I showed up, no matter what happens.

40:05

Yes, it is a great change in the way.

We’re looking at things rather than coming from Fear.

Yes.

So I it was a question that was asked of me is if everything goes well, and they’re looking back.

What is it that they would have appreciated?

40:20

And I use that question sometimes, sometimes they’ll invitation to change.

We talk about it as the 80s birthday question, right?

Birthday celebration, loved one stanza, what would they ever appreciated?

But there’s the flip side of that question was if the worst were to happen in 20 years from now you’re ruled you are looking back at this time now, what is it that you would feel proud of yourself or appreciative of yourself?

40:43

Or doing in this space.

I’ve got exercise.

It’s so valuable.

Yeah.

So now we talked a little bit about well before this, you guys didn’t hear this part yet.

We talked a little bit about, like what evidence based means.

41:00

Yeah.

And then that shiny number of craft meaning talking about how 70% of loved ones seek treatment, and I shared that I don’t use that number anymore.

Because I feel like it’s there’s just so much that needs to be said, along with it.

41:18

When I first found out I was so impressed.

I was using it.

Absolutely.

Because I was like what people need to do this and then I thought, okay, wait a minute back down.

Heather like that’s not the only thing to focus on and that there’s a lot in that number.

41:36

Yes.

So do you want to share a little bit about that?

Absolutely.

So we’re looking at Even and I’m not a researcher, so I’m sure there are much better definitions out there.

But for me, when we’re looking at what evidence-based generally means is that there’s an approach that it has some very, very clear and very often operationally defined goals that are out there that can be measurable.

42:01

And when this approach is done that when compared with other people who are in a different group that aren’t doing that approach, that whatever those goals are happen for the That’s doing that Approach at a systemically significant amount, more than the control group that wasn’t, that was doing my treatment usual, and that there’s lots of studies like this.

42:25

So, there’s a reason called a randomized control trial and that there’s lots of different studies that show this again, and again, and again.

So when were talking about evidence based practice, that’s what we’re looking at.

So, it’s not like a clinician that’s thinking, well, I think that, I don’t know, butterfly therapy, might be really lovely thing.

42:42

I don’t even know if that’s a thing or not, but But you know, so I’m going to bring butterflies I know in my office and because it feels right that might be a really helpful thing, but we don’t actually know because it hasn’t been put through the trials for lots of different people and lots of a context and seeing again and again and again.

So the thing about craft is there is this incredibly shiny and begin shining number?

43:03

That approaching 70% of loved ones, whose families members practice craft will enter into treatment how that is specifically defined within the studies.

At least the ones that I’m aware of because there’s lots of settings, but is that they went in for the loved one, went in for an intake and they were showed up to one session afterwards.

43:23

Doesn’t mean that they completed treatment doesn’t even mean that they went in for two or three sessions, but they entered into the intake and they went into one actual meeting with a clinician or the treatment center acts.

So we’re talking about starting or entering into treatment.

43:38

I think there’s a lot of hope, there’s a big that’s difficult around there, that this means that this will change everything.

You know, pseudo treatment is the be-all end-all, if they just get new treatment will be fixed and that’s not even what we’re talking about with craft is.

It’s just and to point out actually they’re in a lot of the research studies.

43:54

The treatment would right around the corner and in the building behind so of the loved ones.

And finally said, yeah, I’d be interested in doing that.

We just had to walk them around to the back of the building, super easy access the love of your guaranteed access to treatment and that is not how the world works at all.

44:11

So the part I actually think it’s really really helpful about That Chevy percent.

Shiny number is the recognizing that family members.

Practicing these skills do have influence on their loved ones.

A lot of the time.

And that’s the part that we see over and over and over again, if we practice these skills and actually specifically limitation to treatment conversation might be in some communication skills are actually really all that’s needed that we do have influence.

44:38

We have this potential to be able to have a person say yes.

Is that going to solve all the Problems.

Here it is.

Definitely not and cats were to me were actually start looking at some of the other things that I’m not actually just talking about treatment.

I’m talking about connection, I’m talking about family Dynamics, I’m talking about reduction of harm and talking about belonged to our, the family member being be engaged in their own life as much as possible.

45:01

The psychological flexibility like that is what plays out over time to me.

Those are longer-term goals.

So I really do appreciate that 70%, but not for what it said.

I think it’s a little bit of a not for There’s almost like a lot of fantasy that’s wrapped up in there.

Like, we’d absolutely see those numbers, but it doesn’t translate to what we might.

45:23

Hope it would translate to in the real world, so it doesn’t translate to happily ever after.

No, excellent way to put it.

No, no.

The other things that we do see out of craft is that if the family members continue to do the work is that there’s a reduction of substance use over time, not absence but reduction.

45:41

We see the family members well-being them.

Selves increase and in some of the Studies have shown.

Even though it’s not a bowl of Kraft has shown that the loved ones will actually maintain treatment for longer as well, and all of those like that’s, that’s actually one of the ones I get most excited about that.

The family members are doing better reduction, sort of mice, making a treatment is longer just because I see that as a activity recovery.

46:04

But to my mind if somebody is connecting more with their community and maybe maybe going to groups of some kind that fit really well with them or reaching for your pure Tour or practicing harm, reduction approaches or starting to volunteer some place.

I think there’s so many different ways that recovery could look like they’re starting to go to a class of some kind or whatever.

46:25

They’re taking walks outside, are like I get excited about all of that.

So, I want to read the from The psychosis reach training that we did.

I wrote down the definition of recovery.

Yeah.

And the way they said it and I thought when you just brought that up, it really.

46:43

So They say, recovery is a process of change where individuals improve their health and wellness and live a self-directed life and strive to reach their full potential living.

Well, even if symptoms persist, we achieve this, by finding out what matters to a person and how to start moving in the direction of their preferences.

47:02

This is why we emphasize reduction in distress from troubling experiences.

So people can engage more with their life preferences.

Five processes relevant to recovery are Scented with the acronym chime, connectedness hope identity meaning or a sense of meaning, living a meaningful life and empowerment.

47:24

And that is just such a heartwarming definition of recovery because it drops all these expectations of perfection and is really focused on the person who is getting into recovery, what they want, not what we want, but there’s a lot of emphasis Asan, what they want?

47:45

Yes, yes.

Is this for the path to be walkable for them?

It has to make sense to them.

And there’s also then parallel process that starts coming up to with.

I can start working on my own increased well-being.

Basically, my own recovery of the points of time work for me as well as for any of us.

48:05

Yeah, as such an important part of the process is the we’re doing the same thing that we want.

Like wants to do.

Like I remember when I had that realization of like the things that I expected by daughter to do.

I didn’t even know how to do myself and that was a real eye-opening moment, totally right?

48:28

Yes, no, absolutely.

And I set out to learn those things and by taking the steps to learn those things like like what I really wanted in life, What mattered to me, how to feel my own emotions.

Gave me a lot more respect for the process that she was going through and what she was going to have to do in a lot more compassion, just about how hard changes in general.

48:55

Meeting them in that process.

Yes, yes, I’m sure.

And some of what you were talking about earlier brought up, I was thinking about like sustainability of how we’re approaching things that showing up in a way that we can continue to Do and if we’re not taking care of ourselves then we can’t.

49:18

It’s not sustainable now.

I mean, I found myself.

So burned out not taking care of myself and focused on control.

Instead of influence in really, having to just build this whole new relationship with all my expectations about recovery that it wasn’t this one time event, and then everything was going to be okay because I had all of those expectations as well.

49:43

As well as like yeah this huge drive to get her into treatment at any cost because then everything would finally be okay.

And I’d be okay.

Yeah.

And then the realization that that that was that’s just like one stop.

Yeah and most I was afraid to say this but part of thing I am this is this might be just from my own experience but for me is also realization that back to normal or me would have been in this situation that actually wasn’t healthy for my so that there’s things that I needed to do to show up differently.

50:24

There’s no there is no back to normal like I would not back to normal.

I think about what normal was like, those are the pictures of them beforehand.

That I have a real hard time looking at now because I think of all the ways that I showed up that I thought were the right thing and this is what a good mom does that sort of turn my stomach now?

50:41

Cuz I didn’t know better.

And this process taught me.

Yeah, I’m for me back to normal when I was the same thing.

Like I thought that a lot like I just want to go back to the way things were before without realizing the implications of that for my daughter, to the she was showing up.

50:59

She looked Happy on the outside but she wasn’t on the inside, right?

And for me to want to go back to that, that wasn’t working for her and it really wasn’t working for me, either.

I just wasn’t as aware.

As she was absolutely no.

I like myself so much better now as a human being holy cow.

51:21

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And and yet said that even awareness about that other person’s past about the loved ones path and what is Meaningful to them.

And you know, what does that look like?

They’re waiting to make that easier, I’m going to help kind of notice the small changes 1% 2% changes.

51:37

I made it in all of these pieces that start pulling out of the work.

Then Jason to change for graph based approaches.

Where it is that recognition that, you know, one size, these behaviors make sense and one size doesn’t fit all.

And I really step into that with understanding and respect and start to let go of my own expectations, which also meant all that kind of crap.

51:58

That was in my head about a good mom, should be able to control this.

If I was a good mom, you know, my child would be doing explains ET and he thought that starts with, if I was a good mom is yeah.

A lot of those to know it’s really unhelpful.

52:15

So I’m the orienting, then towards this fantasy and not the prize, you’re saying, not the person that’s in front of me, you know, not my child, I remember realizing one day we were this was after I had made a lot of changes and she came out here to live after she had gone to treatment and we were out to lunch and she didn’t like her food and I just had this really clear knowing that Before this, I would have made it about me, and I would have been thinking about things like, I can never make her happy now.

52:46

I’ve got a like order, her another meal, and I’ll make all this stuff about mean all these things about me.

There are really painful which would have created disconnection.

We wouldn’t have had a good time together.

None of the stuff I had intended before that would have happened but then I just suddenly had this realization of like oh my gosh like I’m making all these assumptions here.

53:10

It’s Food that she doesn’t like like.

So I just I said, well, do you want something else to eat?

Or do you want some of mine?

And it was like that simple and we stayed connected, right?

But if I let those thoughts, go on about made it all about me, right?

53:26

Yeah.

Would have pushed her away.

Yeah.

And yet, you’re like, at least what I’m tracking skills their this sense of like, oh, that’s, that’s really, that’s too bad.

It’s, it’s hard to order something and I’m not wanted, what do you want to do?

Would you like some of mine?

Yeah I made it and it’s just and then she’s got choices.

53:45

Like there was a collaboration that starts happening then between the two of you.

Yeah.

Yeah instead of it all being in my head, all my fault.

All my responsibility.

I’ve got to fix this.

I got a.

Yeah yeah and I love that awareness piece like I that’s why I love the way the Wheel Works with invitation to change Matt.

54:03

You know the awareness comes before the behavior tools because it makes it so much.

Jeez easier to implement when you have that awareness and understanding beforehand.

And and my mind is actually all it’s really hard to figure out even where to step into me because it’s all there, right?

54:24

That we definitely need the awareness before, the behavioral tools of lenity understanding.

Before the behavioral tools, sometimes it can be helpful to lean into the behavioral tools.

As a practice to see what happens afterwards.

We can raise the awareness and understanding it correctly.

It’s like this ongoing.

Yeah, it’s Absolutely perch as well.

54:43

So this has been a great conversation.

I’m sure that everybody who’s listening is going to get a lot of.

And I really appreciate explaining some of these things because I think that sometimes when you hear somebody say it works, then there’s the assumption that we’re doing something wrong and undervaluing, all these other things, besides recovery, all these the connection, all these under changes that can take place.

55:09

And then when you look, At that 70% number, maybe like people who have are seeing themselves in the 30%, they might actually be in the 70%.

Now, with the, like, the way we just talked about it, right?

Like maybe their loved one did try out treatment was and well and here’s the tricky thing about like I definitely appreciate evidence-based work for sure, but we are looking at averages We’re looking at trying to step back and see bigger pictures and yet they averages can never be applied to individuals.

55:48

So this work and being able to step into it and practice it and this sense of what this looks like for you like even if we’re talking about things is like biology and chemistry with medications and some of the you know Tylenol works for most people but not for everybody.

56:04

There’s a there’s always there’s these things that Eating bread works for most people but not everybody.

I mean, there’s individual variations in that end when we’re talking about how you live in this that’s actually what matters.

So for folks that are in that using that shiny number for the thirty percent of the folks that didn’t have their logo and enter in your treatment, it doesn’t mean that they were doing something wrong, it doesn’t mean that they weren’t doing it correctly.

56:31

There will never be an approach that 100%.

And it also this question about, what are we tracking?

If somebody is actually feeling better about how they show up in that situation, I think that is more important than whether their loved one gets into an intake and one counseling session of moans.

56:50

So I definitely appreciate the evidence-based practice because I’m Yvonne just making things up about butterflies.

But also really, when were talking about an application of this, I want to be really, I want to hold that very, very lightly if you will because we can’t make that jump Santa Steven Hayes as a really Phenomenal.

57:08

Different toxin writings about the at the end of normal.

So dr.

Steven Hayes from the acceptance commitment therapy world and really, actually talks about how we can’t apply.

Every it is to individuals as in case I don’t, I don’t think we quite have time to dive into that particular hole there.

57:25

But case either of you were all Sinners are interested.

And I’m very, I’m very wary of that Gap.

So, is there anything else that you feel?

We left?

That’s really important, too.

Before we wrap up like so much, there’s so much.

57:41

I just really want to offer appreciation to everyone who is listening and is trying to do what they can to walk this incredibly difficult situation in a way that is Meaningful to you.

57:57

There’s so much here and skills to try and groups to go to and pocket.

It is there’s just so much that there and yet there’s also So, so much around that.

That’s really, really difficult tends to be chaotic and in often.

58:13

So whatever it is that you’re doing to be able to find the meaningful place to put your next step.

I just really respect that and appreciate that.

I also really appreciate other you’re making space or conversations, like these and doing the doing the work that you do.

58:33

So we have lots of connections outside of this as well, and Every time that you show up in one of the various Zoom rooms that were in always really, really glad to see you.

There has your perspective and your wisdom and your and holding of this knowledge, interview room of your experience and that of Lena.

58:51

It’s I really like being around it so don’t you.

Well thank you so much for giving your time to this conversation and for the helping families have website and just all you do for the community.

And how much it’s helped me over the last year or two and it’s helped me help more people.

59:13

It’s help me show up better to have that support of a community of people who are working with craft and ITC like that extra energy.

It gives me helps me put out a podcast in a week that I wouldn’t be able to, you know, and really show up.

59:29

So I appreciate what you’re doing for this community to and your time today, if you’re thinking too much, Thank you for listening to this episode.

If you want to learn more about my work, go to Heather.

Ross coaching.com if you want to help other parents who are struggling with a child’s addiction, you can do it two different ways.

59:50

First, you can share the podcast with them directly or you can share it on your social media second.

You can leave a review, talk to you next week.